Ecommerce Excellence (Case Study: Woolove) – Websites.ca Talk Ep. 53

Sean Corbett:
Hey everybody, Sean Corbert here, Websites.ca Marketing. We have a very exciting and interesting e-commerce based episode this month, which we don’t do a lot of, so I’m pretty stoked about that. We are very, very lucky to be joined by Jason Crowley. He’s the founder of the brands Woolove, North Wool and Northern Sun, and also he’s originally from Winnipeg, just like most of the websites.ca crew, so that’s kind of cool too. Jason, thanks for being here.

Jason Crowley:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Sean Corbett:
You bet. Obviously I want to kind of make the main focus of our talk today about the Woolove brand and what you’re doing online with that. But before we dive into that, I was hoping maybe you could just tell the audience a little bit about your extensive background and retail and marketing that it stretches back quite a while.

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, like I said, Winnipeg grew up there and went to school, school business there at University of Manitoba. Once I wrapped that up, I moved up to Toronto and spent some time at Canadian Tire office there and learned a lot about merchandising and retail on that side. And then spent a couple of years in the world of cpg, packaged goods at Kellog’s and over at Nestle. Along the way there I stumbled across merino wool and the wonderful world of eCommerce and Amazon and Shopify and it’s kind of been a real journey since then.

Sean Corbett:
So when you were with especially Kellogg’s and things like that, were you doing mostly physical stuff or were you also dipping your toe into the online world at that point?

Jason Crowley:
At that point it was mostly physical, so worked a lot with retailers like Loblaws and Walmart, so it was a lot of in-store presence and things like that, but that was really when those companies were having a difficult time establishing their online presence. So it was really neat for me as I got to be at the forefront of how do they sculpt that experience for the shopper in store online and how do they overcome some of the unit economics and logistic go down lower priced items, how could they bundle them together and things like that. So I got a really sort of the holistic view of the whole process from fiscal goods to retail and in between.

Sean Corbett:
That’s really interesting. And then you were kind of saying that the merino wool stuff, you’re bringing that up. So is that basically you were hiking and things and you got into merino personally and then realized there was a gap in the marketplace. Is that kind of how Wool Love started?

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, so wool of is a bit of an interesting story. So I was working at Kingdom Tire at the time and I was excited by the work that I was doing and it was an company, but we were using really archaic systems and talking black and green screen like an MS DOS type of setup. And it almost concerned me a little bit at the time because e-commerce was becoming so prevalent and I was always really curious to get into where eCommerce was debating between going back and doing an NDA and or I got a really interesting opportunity that came up to me to go and travel to China and meet with different suppliers and along the way there I came across merino wool and I thought this stuff is almost too good to be true. It’s moisture wicking and breathable and it never smells and it’s all these great things and it’s just obviously really sustainable product.
And I ended up finding a supplier to source that fabric from and to make some base layers and I’m the type of guy who, anything I can do outdoors, I will do, I’ll run, I’ll hike, ski, fish, whatever, and we live in this world of everything. There’s so much specialized gear and you need something specific for every activity. Well, it doesn’t always fit the bank account super well, and it’s nice to have some items that are versatile and you can wear across different activities. So I just thought that merino was absolutely perfect. It was a great material sustainable and there was kind of a hole in the market that needed to be filled. So that sort of started that journey off.

Sean Corbett:
I can tell you there’s a massive hole in the market because even just finding your company, I had to go around my small area for months and months and I would try to look for a hundred percent cotton, a hundred percent wool, whatever. And even if I could find it, like you were saying in an outdoor store or something, I’d inspect the tag and they’d always sneak some synthetics in there. So it’s like having to find it online was, I guess first it was a little bit annoying. I can’t just go to the store and get this, but then I noticed you guys were Canadian. So then that made me feel a little bit better and yeah, it kind of worked out, but it is shocking how there was a giant gap in the market there.

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, exactly. And where there is a hundred percent merino wool, it can be really expensive prohibitively so for a lot of people to invest in it and with e-commerce, that’s the nice part about it is we can have so much broader of a reach and we can reach Canadians in all corners of the country and because fulfillment and shipping has improved so much over the years, it’s a little bit easier to get products around this vast country of ours. Logistics are always a challenging part, but with such a sustainable quality fabric, we found people more and more are looking for that truly 1% fabric that’s made of fibers that could effectively get thrown right back into a landfill and would eventually just biodegrade.

Sean Corbett:
Yeah, although of course the sneaky secret is that will last for so long if you take care of it too, so even better,

Jason Crowley:
It’s very durable.

Sean Corbett:
Oh yeah, no, it’s amazing. I was just going to add to that. So in addition to the outdoor stuff and all that, I just did a big trip to Europe and flying with actually your shirts and socks and everything. It’s also odor resistant too, so you’re the best friend of the people on the plane next to you when you’re wearing nice merino wool or traveling from multiple days. So yeah, it’s super handy. I was thinking before we talked, Jason, that you are in the unique position and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but this is one of those cases in the marketing world where the feature is the benefit. In other words, you can practically jump on SEO for a hundred percent wool, a hundred percent merino wool without really having to pitch crazy benefits, at least I guess for people who are aware of the benefits of natural materials, but it’s just kind of an interesting position to be in.

Jason Crowley:
It’s funny you say that for sure because when you’re sitting down to figure out how you’re going to market the product and lay out what the features and benefits are, I mean it really is one and the same. So as long as people have awareness about what merino wool is and why it’s a little bit different, everything speaks for itself after that. And we found nine out of people, nine out of 10 people try it and they end up loving it and they stick with it and it does come at a little bit of a premium price point, but once you’ve actually used it and you’ve traveled with it or you’ve gone and done a bunch of different activities outdoors with it, you see why it is such a difference maker. And so once you get that initial hook, I find a lot of people switching their T-shirts, their low sleeves, their box, things like that, just fully into merino.

Sean Corbett:
Yeah, a hundred percent. That’s good to know too. So primary drivers online, I know you were mentioning to me before the episode that you guys have a great presence on Amazon and things like that. I was hoping you could tell the audience just a few. What are your arenas where you win big? Is it a lot of SEO social ads and Amazon or is there something that I’m missing there?

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s a good question. We have had a lot of success on Amazon over the years. I think a lot of that is, I’ve always really believed that if you have a great product and you have great content, so great photos, infographics, size guides, really strong descriptions, a plus content below the full content, if you show the product authentically that people will be drawn to it. Now a big component of that is a great listing and great website alone will never do the job. So we’ve been really strong at Paper Tech Marketing on Amazon particularly, and we’ve been getting better at it off Amazon as well with our own site. It definitely takes a little bit longer with the off Amazon websites if you’re building through Shopify and whatnot to gain domain authority and to gain relevance in a lot of the rankings. But again, really good product listings with details and legitimate use cases for the product. That’s really been sort of an area of strength for us.

Sean Corbett:
Did you come out of the gate with that, especially you mentioned the size guide and everything, that’s super, super important when selling clothes online is especially if you got to get it right because then customers get really mad. But did you kind of come out of the gate with the extensive pictures with the size guide with all the content or is that something that you maybe took a paddling on early on and had to adjust and learn from?

Jason Crowley:
There’s many things that I’ve learned the hard way on, but that was one of those ones where we knew we needed to get it right. We needed to give people the right information off the hop just because it’s so expensive for someone to ship something out to a customer and then have them ship it back and we fairly proudly return rates instead of the single digits, which is an anomaly for a lot of app payroll brands and it’s tough because some people you just never know. You have different fits for different body types and things like that. So we just try and provide, there’s a balance between providing too much information, too little information, and we’ve been able to strike a balance there. And the nice part is that merino is a little bit forgiving where if you wear it a little bit more snug to your body, it’s going to perform really well and if you will, a bit of a preference thing, but absolutely, really, really focused on product images, infographics and size guides. So it’s been a huge driver of our success.

Sean Corbett:
Nice. And you mentioned Pay per-click on Amazon, so is that basically the main strategy on Amazon, great content, a little bit of pay per click, and that’s how you guys have been competing on there? I know also the reviews have gotten very weird on Amazon the last couple of years with cut rate brands buying fake reviews and so on, so I imagine that’s been a bit annoying for you guys.

Jason Crowley:
It’s a constant challenge. You’ll see people pop up there with, it’s a new brand and they’ll have hundreds of reviews out of the gate and you just think, well, there’s no way that happened organically. But I think yeah, with PPC on Amazon, it’s really become a play type of thing. When I started probably six or seven years ago, it was a lot easier to target for keywords and things like that, and you have a lot less sponsor ads on the actual site, whereas if you go to Amazon now, the first four images on any search are all sponsored and then you scroll down and two remote later, the next four. I think there’s a lot to learn now if you’re just getting into it. It’s been almost good. I’ve found time to learn it and use different technology. We use a little bit of AI and we predictive technology and such to figure out what bids are right and which keywords to go after.
Do you want to do broad match or want to go more exact? I think there’s a lot of nuance to that and I think it’s helping. It’s really easy to lose a lot of money on if you’re not really careful with how you’re spending. I think that’s something that Amazon has a lot of that they already have so many people coming to their website. You just have to make sure you’re, when they look at and you have a good conversion rate versus off Amazon, that’s a totally different beast. You have to drive all the traffic to your site and once you do, you usually have a more committed buyer, but they really are almost reverse funnels in that sort of sense.

Sean Corbett:
So Google would be way more high awareness, like I was talking about earlier, somebody who’s pretty much made their decision already and already done the research. And then maybe Amazon is more of a slightly higher up in the funnel, slightly more casual shopper that you can draw in. Did I get that right?

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, exactly. I mean people are coming to Amazon and they’re almost starting their as well too. What sort of product availability is there, price points, what are the reviews? They almost get a feel for things there and then if they don’t see what they like, then they might jump over to Google and that’s where the efficiency and they’re maybe pulling the trigger on something from there.

Sean Corbett:
Interesting, okay. Right. I guess that makes sense. I never thought of Amazon as a research portion of the customer journey, but it makes complete sense when you say it like that.

Jason Crowley:
It’s definitely changed a lot. Amazon is quite a beast and especially in Canada because one of the big challenges in Canada is shipping rates. It’s so expensive to ship products. If you’re based in Vancouver and you need to ship to Ontario or even Halifax or something like that, even for most basic items you’re looking at 50 and $20. So if Prime comes in and they’re shipping stuff for free or low cost, that can be really difficult for websites to compete with. And it’s something that I think websites should be aware of as well too. If company can go and find your same product on Amazon and they’ve got an account which millions of Canadians do, then it makes it a lot easier for them to procure that product. So we just want to make sure you’re competitive against that and you’re at least aware of what kind of value you can add versus the experience on Amazon. So I don’t know had a lot of guests that sell on Amazon or deal with that ecosystem.

Sean Corbett:
We haven’t really, and honestly, as I’m talking to you, I want to go down that tangent just because it’s so interesting and new to me, but I won’t get too deep in the weeds on it obviously with you. But the one thing that I guess I just have to know from Amazon, if someone has a Prime account, obviously they get that free shipping, how does that work for you, the vendor? Do you still have to cover that cost and you just eat it or Amazon subsidizes it or how does that work?

Jason Crowley:
So with the way that Amazon does their cost structure, they have a fulfillment fee on each order. So you’re responsible for covering that and that largely covers I guess Amazon’s own advertising costs and their fulfillment costs, but you do not pay the shipping when somebody has the shipping would be taken care of at the customer level. So that’s something that is extremely competitive for Amazon. It’s a huge, huge advantage for the customer and for Amazon as well.

Sean Corbett:
Oh, that’s actually great then. So like you said, that kind of papers over in some ways anyway, the crazy Canadian shipping situation.

Jason Crowley:
Absolutely. But I’m with you. Amazon is a beast in and of its own, so we don’t have to get too hung up on that. It’s just one piece of the bigger picture where we got got our foot in the door.

Sean Corbett:
No, for sure. Yeah, you’ll have to forgive me because like I say, little things like that I can get really fascinated by. Let’s just pull back out though and talk a little bit about the brands because like you were saying 2018 you started Woolove, but then you’ve also added since then NorthWool and Northern Sun a little bit more premium as well. So just if you could talk to us about the development of Woolove into these three separate brands.

Jason Crowley:
Absolutely. So with Woolove, we grew a really great customer base and we love all of our customers and it’s been an exciting journey and through that we’d gotten feedback along the way that some folks did. They did want that really premium option. They wanted something that was more than just a simple base layer with the basics. They wanted something that had a quarter zip hoodie type of thing that had a nicer zipper on it or it had different fabrics weaved into it and things like that. So NorthWool has almost provided a bit of a testing grind for us to try different things that we can then launch into wool love or we can get feedback on. And that is where we did go and weave some additional fabric types into it. For example, when you create a hoodie or a bulkier item with wool, if you want it to be durable, you tend to have to go with a thicker fabric, which not everybody wants that per, so if you do weave in a little bit of spandex or nylon or something like that, it gives it some additional durability and some flexibility without necessarily adding a bunch of fabric meat.
So that’s allowed us to test some things in there, getting it a little bit away from the a hundred percent merino and also just to try some different designs and raise screen prints and things like that.
As we’ve grown here, base layer is just sort of the first part of a full lineup of underwear and what makes you successful outside? So we had an opportunity last year to reboot a brand called Northern Sign, which existed in Canada since the late 1970s. It was around until about 2008 and you can still see pieces of it floating around by Etsy and Pinterest, and we just redid that with modern fabrics and modern designs and things like that. So you now have sort of the full gamut here where you’ve got your Woolove base layer, your north mid layer, and now you have your northern sun, which is your outerwear and your out. So when it’s really to fully equipped Canadians with everything they need as they go and deal with chaotic weather patterns.

Sean Corbett:
That’s right. And the beauty of it is you can get that all on one website so you can just build the whole collection basically in one go.

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, makes the user experience a little bit more seamless. We’re all busy, we don’t want to be clicking around all day on different sites for as much as we’re on our phones.

Sean Corbett:
Yeah, no, no, definitely. For sure. Well, I do appreciate your time here, Jason. I’ll probably wrap this up pretty soon. Now, I always like to ask people, this maybe sounds a little bit of a negative angle, but I always think of asking people what their misconceptions were or maybe some of the stumbles they had and then they were able to learn and grow from. So in terms of e-commerce or in terms of an online business, would you say there were a couple, does anything stand out as like, oh, you had this idea at the start and you thought for sure you had to do it this way and you learned after a couple months? Nope, that’s not going to work online.

Jason Crowley:
Yeah, I’m definitely laughing a little bit for sure. I think 6, 7, 8 years ago, it was a little bit easier to just pop something up on a website and think that it would sell. And certainly it’s gotten a lot more competitive. So I would say even now, a great website doesn’t mean you’re going to sell a lot of products. You have to have a compelling story and you need to have a great product that stands out. I also think there’s a big misconception as well too, that you might hire some influencers or some ambassadors and one post is going to plunge you to the top of the rankings and your product’s going to fly off the shelves and there’s a lot of great people to work with out there and there’s a lot of great content, but you always make sure you work that have the same vision and stuff and maybe just have level set your expectations before you do a big partnership.

Sean Corbett:
That’s funny. Yeah, I was debating back and forth whether to ask you about influencer stuff, so we could probably do a whole episode just on that, but yeah. Okay, interesting. So last word goes to you, Jason. Anything you want to tell us about being an online Canadian brand or anything else about your passion for merino wool in particular, anything like that?

Jason Crowley:
Absolutely. It’s not easy, but that’s what makes it really rewarding. We absolutely love making great products that Canadians can use day in and day out. We know that there’s no item out there that’s a one size fits all. So versatility is so important to have in people’s wardrobes, and I think a lot of our products are a little bit like Swiss army knife of your wardrobe. But no, I love the experience. We’ve had tons of positive feedback and just a proud Canadian and love selling all kinds of different products to Canadians across the country. So it’s been a really rewarding and enjoyable bearing for sure.

Sean Corbett:
I can tell you that the feeling is mutual. We love your products as well, and I even started to slowly seed them into my girlfriend’s. The gifts that she gets. Christmas is birthday as I always give her a few more of your products and then I just wait for about a month. She’s like, where’d she get that? Can we get more of those? So yeah, it’s been great to find a brand like yours in Canada. It is just shockingly hard to find and it’s sad in general to say that, but good for you guys. So

Jason Crowley:
We’ll keep working at it and it’s a good opportunity for me to plug in our product bundles there where you can get a few different items and maybe something for yourself, something for her or for a brother or sister or parent, and save a few bucks along the way. And you look like the hero, but it’s something nice for yourself along the way. So

Sean Corbett:
That was the trick. Yeah, exactly. Where can folks find you? What’s the best way for them to get to the site and start ordering?

Jason Crowley:
Absolutely. You can always search us on Amazon, that’s easy “wool love”. Otherwise, go to Google and just type in your search bar “wool love”. Then it’ll take you right to our website. Makes it super easy for you.

Sean Corbett:
Perfect. And we’ll put that in the show notes as well. Jason, thanks for being here,

Jason Crowley:
Sean, really appreciate it. Thank you very much.